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Sin and the Fallenness of Creation - Comments and Discussion
Comment by Maynard S. Clark - 15 December 1998
I'm glad that someone has finally decided to address this topic, but, contrary to what Michael Shaw had written here, I believe that the CLASSICAL Christian teaching about the "lost estate" (John Milton) had presented a really attractive and appealing mindset for those who ponder and struggle the seemingly irretrievable conflict into which the natural orders seem to have become engaged.
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Comment by Frank L. Hoffman - 18 December 1998
I found Michael Shaw's commentary on Sin and the Fallenness of Creation very scholarly and interesting, but I disagree with some of his conclusions. Being both a scientist and a theologian, I look at things a little differently. Michael Shaw views evil as a created "thing". I don't believe that it is, any more than darkness or cold are created things.
We will begin this comparison by examining heat. Heat is caused by the excitation of atomic and molecular particles. The faster they move about, the "hotter" that substance becomes. The absence of any movement or heat is what we scientifically call absolute zero. Ice feels "cold" to the touch because it draws heat from the skin. When we stand in the wind, the moisture on our skin evaporates quickly and we feel colder than the actual temperature indicates. We call this effect "wind-chill". God created the atomic particles and combined them into atoms and molecules. He also set them in motion (Genesis 1:2). It is interesting that even though we can get very close to absolute zero, we have never been able to completely achieve it. We can slow down what God has created, but we cannot stop it.
In the beginning, God created light (Genesis 1:3). Darkness is the absence of light, not a separate substance or thing. Even though the Bible refers to "darkness" as a noun, in context it is only being used for comparative purposes to show contrast with "light". Light, as a physical substance of either energy or photon particles, is the light by which we read. Light, in the Bible, is also referred to as the knowledge and wisdom of God. The lack of such light within us is referred to as being in "darkness".
The same concept, or relationship, holds true about that which is without the wisdom or knowledge of God's created good intent. This "created good intent" was even considered to be "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Such a state of being is either innocent or evil, depending upon the circumstances. To have no knowledge of either good or evil is innocent. To be told to do something by God and then disobey that command is evil. To know the truth and deny it is evil. To choose to do the opposite of God's created intent is evil. Thus, that which is evil is not "created" except though our own actions, those actions which eliminate the good. To me, this is also an example of free-will.
Even though Michael Shaw considers it against God's desire to abuse and kill people and animals, by following Michael's logic, we could come to the conclusion that God created some of His beings to be tortured and killed as we do with billions of animals each year. I don't believe this is true. I believe that God never intended humans or animals to eat flesh or each other. I believe that God took a "risk" in creating us with a free-will, the risk that we would not obey Him. Thus, as part of His creation, He also had to create the method of fixing or healing the problems that would arise. He did not create the evil, but only the methods of healing it.
We choose to live in the darkness. We choose to live in the light. We choose to do evil. We choose to do good. We choose to listen to God. We choose to disobey God. If we're honest with ourselves, we will admit it, for it makes common sense.
Comment by Alex Chartrand - 18 December 1998
While I respect Frank Hoffman's position, I will nonetheless disagree with a few points, and making some qualifications to other.
While I agree with the last statement he made that "We choose to live in the darkness. We choose to live in the light. We choose to do evil. We choose to do good. We choose to listen to God. We choose to disobey God." it is NOT done freely. I say this because we know from behavioural psychology that human beings repond to their environent based on the education they receive from their earliest experiences of people and things around them: thus they are predisposed to a variety of responces concerning a variety of stimuli. (not to mention genetic factors) If you do not believe that human beings are formed and heavily impressed on by their environment, then I would like you to explain how is it you can speak, write, interact and hold the views that you do. I offer that the reason is, is that you were taught to by your environment to do these things. Your views are based on experiences, and experiences are part of the environment. If anyone is wondering "what about inner experiences?" then I would offer that these occured to you via some mysterious power we call "God" or "angels" or what-have-you: an outside force beyond our control. So I do not see how our will to choose is "free". In order for a will to be "free": it cannot be conditioned to behave in a particular manner or have the choice itself conditioned by any stimulus of the environent, or any other factor which stems from any source other than the "self", but the "self" is itself a conditioned, contigent entity. Therefore, there is no such thing as a truly free will "if we are really honest with ourselves".
Here:
Adam and Eve were innocent and ignorant upon their creation (Gen 2:25 - they felt no shame, that is, did not judge, which is to be innocent)
Adam and Eve had no knowledge prior to eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (Gen 2:25)
Adam and Eve were told not to eat while in a state of ignorance (Gen 2:17)
Since the ignorant are unable to discern right from wrong (as this is knowledge), the ignorant Adam and Eve were unable to grasp the meaning of "no" or "don't" (just like children). Therefore, they did not know what we can "disobedience" to be wrong. (Since, again, they had no knowledge of good or evil)
The Snake told Eve to eat from the Tree. Since she did not have knowledge of good or evil, she did not know the implications of doing the snakes bidding. So she ate and shared it with Adam.
What does this mean? That Adam and Eve, in actual fact, did not have a "free will" in doing what they did. Nor is our will free either (though we have much more content in our minds and are held responsible for the en-action of that content for the sake of maintaining order in our society - but it is not free).
On another note, you mentioned that "evil" is not a "thing". Since evil is a value judgement about what we experience according to some standard, then I would, in many cases, agree with you that evil is not an object to be examined, rather the indentification and judgement about a particular characteristic of an object. However, using your logic, there is also no such thing as "good" either. That too is a value judgement made about particular characteristics of an object based on some system of values. Since this argument counters the standard Christian understanding of the qualitative values of good or evil, I think it is not helpful to discuss good or evil in this situation as a substance, rather it is best described as state of (spiritual) "knowledge" or "ignorance", if we act according to "ignorance", we are bound to voilate the dignity of other beings in a plethora of ways, "evil". However, if we act from a place of spiriual "knowledge", then we are likely to do what might be characterised as "good". Indeed, we might view this another way: when we act in harmony with things (such as moderation, even handed-ness etc.) then things can be characterised as "good"; however, when we are out of harmony, out of balance, (disregarding the dignity of others, seeking to overstep reasonable social bounds for the sake of our ego) "evil" is done.
Just though I would share a reflection,
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