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Comments by C. L. Troupe - 12 Dec 2006
THESE CAPS AND ITALICS ARE ONLY TO SEPARATE MY COMMENTS FROM THOSE OF RON B. I AM NOT YELLING OR UPSET AT ANYONE, SO LET'S PROCEED:
Your commentary by Mr. Troupe was very disturbing to me as true salvation is something that is very dear to me for evident reasons, and for my own personal reasons. While it is probably the most important topic of the bible, as a Christian it is also the most important question in your life. Basically in a nutshell, you had better have it right!!
1.) He brings up Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus.
The scripture says, "...unless he is born of water and of the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit."
WHAT IS THE POINT HERE? THIS PORTION OF SCRIPTURE IS SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IT DOES. JESUS IS TELLING NICODEMUS ABOUT THE NEW BIRTH.
AND AS I SAID, THE ENTIRE TOPIC OF THEIR DISCUSSION WAS CONTRASTING THE PHYSICAL BIRTH WITH THE SPIRITUAL BIRTH.
Giving birth or being born is stated 3 times in these 2 verses.
AGAIN, YOU ARE MAKING MY POINT, THE SUBJECT IS BIRTH, NOT BURIAL.
Can we agree that before you can be born again in any way, that there first must be death?
BORN AGAIN IN ANY WAY? ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE ARE MORE WAYS THAN ONE TO BE BORN AGAIN? I'M SORRY, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. DO YOU???
BUT NO, I DO NOT AGREE THAT BEFORE ONE CAN BE BORN AGAIN, THERE MUST FIRST BE A DEATH.
So while you say that baptism is a symbol of death only, and not new life, it is most assuredly a symbol of both.
OF COURSE IT IS. WATER BAPTISM SYMBOLIZES OUR DEATH AND BURIAL WITH CHRIST, AND OUR BEING RAISED UP (WITH CHRIST) TO WALK IN THE NEWNESS OF LIFE!
BUT WATER BAPTISM DOES NOT SYMBOLIZE THE NEW BIRTH.
Baptism was so important to salvation that Paul sneaked out of prison with the guards at midnight to baptize them, all with the threat of them all probably being killed if caught.
CONSIDERING THE MAGNITUDE OF THE EARTHQUAKE THAT OPENED THOSE PRISON DOORS, I DOUBT IF THERE WAS ANY SNEAKING INVOLVED.
WATER BAPTISM IS A POST SALVATION ACT OF OBEDIENCE, AND NOT AN ELEMENT OF THE SALVATION PROCESS.
IF WATER BAPTISM WAS A PART OF THE SALVATION FORMULA, PAUL WOULD HAVE NEVER SAID, "…I THANK GOD THAT I BAPTIZED NONE OF YOU…" AND "…CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL…"
2.) Please explain to me then the wide and narrow roads, or gates….
I AM NOT GOING TO QUOTE YOUR LITTLE ANALOGY ABOUT THE ROADS BECAUSE YOU ARE CLAIMING IT AS SOME KIND OF EXTRA-BIBLICAL REVELATION, WHICH I WILL NOT ACCEPT. BUT WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT HOW YOU GOT IT, AND WHY YOU BELIEVE IT IS VERY INTERESTING INDEED:
By the way, I asked God about this and the analogy of modern roads were given to me…While not stated plainly in scripture, and nothing to back it, I believe this to be true.
YOU JUST CLAIMED TO BELIEVE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT STATED IN SCRIPTURE AND THAT YOU HAVE "NOTHING TO BACK IT UP" BUT YOU BELIEVE IT ANYWAY.
HAVE YOU ANY IDEA WHAT THAT DOES TO YOUR CREDIBILITY?
Philippians 2:12 "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling..." First of all, if it is as simple as believing alone, then why would I ever have to fear and tremble about it? Secondly, the Greek word used there for work out is katergazomai, it means to produce, accomplish or bring about.
I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. IT CONTAINS THE SAME ROOT WORD THAT HAS BEEN TRANSLATED AS "WORK" ALL THROUGH THE NEW TESTAMENT. BUT IT DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH OR BRING ABOUT OUR SALVATION.
THE PREFIXES, CASES AND TENSES (AND DECLENTIONS) OF A GREEK WORD DOES NOT CHANGE ITS BASIC MEANING.
USING THAT SAME BASIC (OR ROOT) WORD, JESUS SAID, "…THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT…"
While my personal belief of a 3 step process MAY be more than necessary, it is not jeopardizing [my] salvation…
OH BUT IT DOES! TO BE SAVED YOU MUST BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS, AND NOTHING ELSE! ALL THOSE GOOD THINGS THAT CHRISTIANS DO (INCLUDING WATER BAPTISM) ARE BUT THE RESULTS OF SALVATION, NOT THE CAUSE OF IT.
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