Salvation
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Salvation

Comments by Bernard J. Coombs - 26 Dec 2006

Dear Frank.

Part 1 of my comments.

Seeing that the original posting about Salvation from Mr. C.L.Troupe has already attracted well over 600 hits from lurkers – one of whom is Ron B. (on his own admission - and must be too shy to even give his name) – and since no one else of the over 600 has questioned the contents of Mr. Troupe's dissertation trying to prove other Churches and Authors wrong in their interpretations of the meaning of Salvation; I would like to say here that Mr. Troupe is quite correct in his analysis of their beliefs that they are all wrong to some extent but then also so is Mr. Troupe.

So at this point of the discussion I would like to take up Mr. Troup's offer; even though I am not one of the authors to which he refers.

In paragraph 4 of his "Answers From The Bible (For All Those Who Want True, Biblical Salvation)" – He states "(I am not only willing but anxious to air these differences in a public forum.).

Well Sir – you've got one – all-creatures.org – Frank and Mary's site which has already had well over 8,000,000 visitors since February this year.

     I will place Mr. Troup's statements and comments in red italics like this.

     I will print Scriptures in blue italics like this.

     And my own commentary in black like this, to make for easier reading/understanding.

It would also help readers to follow these differences if they print out Mr. Troup's "Answers from The Bible (For All Those Who Want True, Biblical Salvation)."

In paragraph 16 – Mr. Troupe states "…But do you see the word "alleged" to describe the valid salvation experience of the thief on the cross? Jesus told the man, "…today you will be with me in paradise." He did not say,"…today you will be with me in hell."

Your understanding and translation of this verse  (Luke 23:43) is totally wrong, as are the translations that transliterate this sentence as:

"And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (King James).

'Jesus answered him,' "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (New International Version).

But in some other of the modern translations including "New World Translation of the HOLY SCRIPTURES." This verse is translated as:

'And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."' (New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures).

And so the thief will be after being assessed at the Great White Throne Judgement and serving out his sentence – if any.

In the original Greek there are no punctuation marks - commas or full stops etc. as we know them, so just because of the misplacement of one comma by translators who were just coming out of the dark ages – unkown millions of people have thought they go to Paradise when they die.

You will see that the comma should be after the word "today" and not after the word "You."

Here it is again.

'And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paridise."

Our Lord did not go to Heaven when He died – He went to Hell/Hades.

Acts 2:31 "He (King David) foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption….For David did not ascend into the Heavens…." (Revised [American] Standard Version).

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formally were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah,..." (New King James Version).

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:" (King James). This was more than three days after He was crucified.

Matthew 20:19 "And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again."

In the next para. you state [Our church] (taking off some denomination or person) believes that through Christ's atonement and his resurrection, All will live again, be resurrected and have immortality. As stated in 1Corithians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Another problem.

This 'belief' is contrary to the Bible! The above noted Scripture does NOT state – or even hint – that "all' people will simply be resurrected and have immortality. All people will most certainly be resurrected, but not 'all' to immortality. Jesus said that some will be resurrected to everlasting and immortality, but some to everlasting judgment and shame.

Once again there is a serious anomaly in how this transliteration is read and understood.

The word ALL in the above verses is pŁntej Pantos, the plural of Pas meaning ALL ALL - not just people but all things, all manner of, everything, anything whatsoever, every, every kind or variety, including all creatures that have ever been alive – even including prehistoric creatures.

It is very difficult to discern the pure truth with so many different denominations and translations of the Holy Scriptures – In fact unless one goes back to the original languages it is nearly impossible, unless one receives understanding of the truth by revelation from the Great Holy Spirit.

Take the last two lines of your above statement where you use the word "everlasting". To most people they would understand this to mean eternal/never ending/for ever and ever/forever – but this is not correct. So let's go back to the original Greek and once again see the translational anomalies.

I prove conclusively that the word everlasting does not mean never ending in Appendix C (about Lucifer/Satan being in Heaven) of my book "All Creatures do go to Heaven – proved from the original languages of the Holy Scriptures" on:

http://www.all-creatures.org/ach

If some were going to be in never ending punishment, like so many Catholics (and apparently you) believe, how can you explain the following verses taken from their own Bibles?

1Corinthians 15:22-26 "And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But every one in his own order: the first fruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming. 24 Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. 25 for he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: for he hath put all things under his feet. (Douay-Rheims Catholic Version).

Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him."  (King James).

Ephesians 1:9-10 "He has made known to us his hidden purpose—such was his will and pleasure determined beforehand in Christ—to be put into effect when the time was ripe: namely, that the universe, all in heaven and on earth, might be brought into a unity in Christ." (the New English Bible).

The word all in the above verses is once again the Greek word pŁntej meaning every kind or variety including creatures, plants, trees and everything else.

I'm very sorry Mr. Troupe and all those lurkers out there including Ron B. but I have run out of time and have only accessed two of what I consider Mr. Troupe's wrong understandings about Salvation. My understanding is that our Lord's sacrifice on the cross was so great that every thing that has ever been created or born will eventually be in Heaven on some level or other – even including Satan, although he will be the lowest creature there.

So this is the end of part one of my comments as I must carry on with my projects.

If you Mr. Troupe would like a free copy of my book "All creatures do go to Heaven, especially Pets - proved from the original languages of the Holy Scriptures." And published by Biblio Books in Israel – just read it on line on Frank's wonderful site – FIRST – then if you feel that I am wrong with any rhetoric, and prove it – then I will change it – but I cannot waste time proving questions that I have already proved in my book. I am over 81 and have much more yet to do before our Lord's very soon coming.

In Jesus' name:

Bernard J. Coombs – Australia.

If any of you Lurkers out there would like to contact me. You are very very welcome to do so.

creaturestoheaven@pacific.net.au  Australia.

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